In the Immigration Debate are these legitimate points to consider?

Posted By: SWillard
Posted on: Mar. 21, 2007 at 7:06 PM

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Ok, MoronInCharge and Indie616 and Phaedrus and Tom Carter convinced me we’re all at a pub table and the conversation is going to go in all directions, so we should enjoy it.

RV Romero guest-hosted Jeff Farias’ show on Tuesday March 20th, and I thought he did a good job, and it was good for him to get some drive-time exposure.

But, in addressing his primary topic of Immigration, I really felt he presented a one-sided view – I felt his underlying premise was ‘good Liberals all know that immigration from Mexico is justified, a historical reality, and the progressive view is, of course, we should support its continuation.’

I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but that was the impression I took away.

Let me say that I do have much compassion for those who brave dangers to come to the United States to work, to escape poverty, and establish a better life for themselves.

But, I feel that the scope and magnitude of illegal immigration today goes far beyond an historically accepted course of cyclical migration, a natural melding of peoples who co-exist while really not giving much credence to those pesky lines on the map.

That may have been true and workable many decades ago. But today in 2007 illegal immigration from Mexico is at crisis proportions and it must be addressed.

I began to write what’s below, and it is not really finished or polished. And it was hard to write.

So, rather than agonize over it further, I thought I would present it with a different twist:

ARE these legitimate points to consider when discussing the illegal immigration issue?

First, let’s take a look at the magnitude. It is estimated there are 12 million plus illegal immigrants from Mexico alone now in the U.S. Estimates vary – maybe less, maybe more. But, you must agree the numbers are significant. Four percent of America’s 300 million population being non-documented non-citizens is significant, and the numbers are growing.

My source is

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html

I have four main points I believe are essential in considering solutions for the present illegal immigration crisis. These are in order of most important first:

[1] Mexico needs to fix itself and clean up its act

The forces fueling Mexican illegal immigration to the United States are supply and demand. But perhaps not in the sense frequently presented. The failure of supply in this equation is a failure of Mexico to provide for its citizens. [I felt RV completely glossed over this question when asked about this issue early in the show].

It is a country’s responsibility to provide for its citizens. Mexico fails to provide for its citizens. It is not the responsibility of the United States to provide for citizens of Mexico, nor is it a reasonable expectation for any country to be saddled with such a responsibility.

Mexico needs to fix itself:

-- Mexico has one of the most inverted wealth to population ratios in the world. It is an oligarchy where 1 percent of the people control 99 percent of the wealth. This is on par with 18^th century France.

-- Mexico has plenty of natural resources, plenty of arable land, and lots of smart and eager people. But the oligarchy has class-stratified the country into a caste system. If the oligarchy wasn’t so greedy, there is plenty of wealth to go around.

-- There are 10 billionaires in Mexico – they could share a fraction of their wealth to benefit the citizens of their country. Their selfishness is obscene.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-slim9mar09,1,3488330.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

-- There are vociferous complaints that America treats illegal immigrants from Mexico poorly – but Mexico’s treatment of illegal immigrants crossing her borders is far worse. Mexico itself needs to exhibit compassion for immigrants before demanding such treatment for her people.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story

Enrique's Journey by Sonia Nazario

http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim47.htm

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20070227-2120-mexico-centralamericanmigrants.html

http://www.newsobserver.com/689/story/552036.html

-- The Mexican government and public safety infrastructure is terribly corrupt. This provides no basis for a flourishing economy which allows people to enhance their standard of living. [I didn't document this point, so please disprove it...]

[2] The United States already has illegal immigration laws, but they are largely not enforced, or selectively and tragically enforced.

There are Federal laws now in force which make it a crime for any employer to knowingly hire illegal immigrants (with some agricultural exceptions. That these laws are not enforced is a major fault in U.S. immigration policy.

-- It is terribly unjust for the U.S. to allow companies to actually recruit Mexican workers for cheap wages and import them into the country.

-- Companies are using the allure of jobs to attract Mexican and other foreign workers as a cost saving and profit raising strategy.

-- It is a $10,000 fine per infraction for knowingly hiring an undocumented worker. If the U.S. would actually enforce its current laws, there would be no more supply of jobs for illegal immigrants. It is obvious the politicians choose to allow business to engage in these illegal practices.

-- It is a travesty the United States ignores its own immigration laws.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/immigration_hiring_law_excerpts_from_us_code.htm

-- United States – heal thyself:

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/04/us_employers_ac.php

-- It must also be said that selective enforcement of these laws, for example on the guys from a high school class visiting Niagra Falls a year or so ago, or recently the three kids who got caught drag-racing, and then handed to the INS (iguess it's ICE these days) -- these are erribly mean- spirited and harmful actions that do nothing to address the larger problem.

[3] Illegal workers in the U.S. do cost more that they contribute [3a] Reciprocity

-- Sure, non-citizen workers illegally in the U.S. pay taxes, but they remain among the poorest of U.S. residents, and the U.S. generously provides schooling, emergency healthcare, and all the benefits of U.S. public institutions (law enforcement, libraries, WIC, etc.)

-- A person in the U.S. in violation of immigration laws should not be entitled to Social Security benefits. There should be no complaint that an illegal immigrant doesn’t accrue the full benefits of a citizen. Tell me why they should?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&

-- Illegal immigrants are taxing border hospital emergency rooms:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?o:69346

-- Illegal immigrants send an astonishing amount of money back to Mexico and other countries. Billions flow out of the U.S. – even Vincente Fox acknowledges this is a major economic input to the Mexican economy (and an equivalent loss for the U.S. economy).

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1211moneysenders07.html

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001551.html

I submit that in today’s state of illegal immigration, on average, an illegal immigrant costs the U.S. economy more than they contribute. Please refute me if you have facts and figures, but the points above are factual and real.

-- Let’s talk about RECIPROCITY. If we allow persons entering the U.S. illegally to have most rights that a U.S. citizen is entitled to, then I should expect the same from Mexico. Shouldn’t I? In Mexico, I should be able to seek any job, have my children attend Mexican public schools and be taught in English or have special instruction to learn Spanish. I should expect to receive all public services that Mexican citizens receive, as we provide Mexican illegals here in the U.S.

-- If you say Mexico is not sufficiently wealthy to provide such benefits, then I say item [1] above needs to be fully addressed (which I feel the major cause of the current immigration crisis in any event)

[4] U.S. Citizenship must mean something!

-- What does U.S. citizenship mean if individuals cross U.S. borders illegally, work without documentation (or forged or stolen documentation) and get all the same rights and benefits as U.S. citizens? Why should their rights be equal?

Ok, tell me what you think -- SW

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SWillard

Mar. 21, 2007 at 07:21:08 PM

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I noticed about half of my links don’t work as they should, sorry…

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Debbie of Phx

Mar. 21, 2007 at 07:49:05 PM

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SWillard,

Very well presented and thoughtful article. The Tucson Weekly does show varied sides of the immigration issue depending on what isssue you read. Southern Arizona is experiencing trauma, dead bodies in the desert is just one image.

I'm stuck on your word "reciprocity." My kids fight with each other. I hear them say, "Well, he hit me so I get to hit him back." RECIPROCITY. But do I allow that? Do I get to hit my kids just because it's a behavior they're engaged in for the moment? No. I'm the adult. I always held the image that The United States of America was "the adult" in this crazy world. I always thought we chose our behaviors based on our "values" and not on the behaviors of other countries.

HOME. What do you think of when you hear that word? Is that a place you can retreat to? Is it safe? Are you fed? Can you raise a family there? Americans think our country is "the best" and it is for Americans. But is it possible that the "ranch back in Durango, Mexico where my mother still lives" is a beautiful place that "I didn't want to leave. I miss. I cry for."? Is it possible that we are all trapped on this planet no matter what "lines" we draw? Is is possible that people are being exploited in two countries and we need to realize this? Is it possible to "love your neighbor?" Is it possible to love ourselves enough to know a "paper" doesn't make us "better?" A starving child is a starving child. A working parent is a working parent. Is it possible for us to ever agree on that?

My students write about being carried over the desert when they were to little to know what was going on. They write about the love for theor families.

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indie616

Mar. 21, 2007 at 08:02:36 PM

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SW.

I am glad that you didn't bail out on the site.

This article proves that you will have much to contribute, and I can't disagree or argue any point. In other words, AMEN!!!

To reinforce Point 2. ICE notified a Swift meatpacking plant that they were under scrutiny for hiring possible illegals and that a raid was possible. The response from the company?
To go to court to stop it because it would cause "substantial and irreparable injury" to its business.

However, the CEO of Swift meatpacking said, in effect...oh, we would never hire illegals!

[link:www.foxnews.com]

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AZ Moderate

Mar. 21, 2007 at 08:07:20 PM

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Rating for this article

Exactly SWillard. And the underlying issue is that of national sovereignty. This is not a migration as much as it is an invasion.

One feature of today's immigration that makes it very different from immigration historically is that we share a long border with the émigrés homeland. Our shared border with Mexico allows relatively easy travel back and forth (as opposed to the Irish, Italians, Norwegians, Et al). The immigrants of old had to commit to becoming American citizens because there was no going back for them - only going forward.

With south-of-the-border immigrants, that is not a factor, and this creates two classes of immigrants that did not exist in days of yore.

The legal immigrants come here historically with the intention of melding into the American culture in a generation or two (which Hispanic Americans do in large numbers just as the Irish, Italians and others did in past waves of immigration).

The illegal aliens on the other hand really have no intention of committing to being a part of our American culture. They are here usually to earn a living for their family that they cannot earn back south-of-the-border. The money, and probably they themselves, go back to a more familiar and culturally comfortable "homeland" at some point.

That makes them different than the Irish, Italians, Norwegians, legal Mexicans and others who, while they may have been exploited, were citizens with the promise of better things in subsequent family generations.

And it is unfair to naturalized American citizens of Mexican decent (or any other origin, for that matter). In fact the illegal aliens from Mexico now out number their legal counterparts by a widening margin, something never before encountered in the history of our nation.

This situation with our Mexican Neighbor is a new phenomenon in the history of the United State, and it remains to be seen what the ramifications are.

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indie616

Mar. 21, 2007 at 08:31:56 PM

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SW,
If you have the time, go back to the historical documents of this site and read some of AZ Moderate's articles on this issue.

Definitely worth the time!

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www.MoronInCharge.com

Mar. 21, 2007 at 08:37:18 PM

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This was a fantastic distillation of the facts SW, and well argued. I also listened to the show while splitting my attention between him and finishing up my work. I was going to call in to question the "fact" that, by and large, undocumented immigrants pay more dollars back into society than they extract. I'm simply unable to verify such a claim, and I think some of the slight-of-hand in the numbers has to do with present versus future account balances. A large number of those 12 million illegal immigrants have fake SS cards which means they will be sending in tax revenue, but has the future payout of SS benefits to them been taken into account when RV says their contribution is on the black ink side of the ledger?

On the other hand, every immigrant group that has come to this country in the past pretty much started at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, and they also would have been a net drain to society for one or two generations. I say would have, because the only reason they weren't was the absence of a social safety net (Social Security, ER care, widespread public education, etc.) during the late 1800s and early 1900s. As a growing nation, we received all the benefits of their labor without the attendant costs. Now I know this is the kind of world AA would like to return to, but I would like to come to a more humane solution than sweeping today's huddled masses under the rug because "at least it's better for them here than the Great Potato Famine."

The crucial difference as you (and Lou Dobbs) allude to is that we never had such a large influx of legal or illegal immigrants at any one time, and even in the best of economies, that is a huge burden to the US. Given the grim reality that our total debt is on track to be $10 trillion by the time Bush walks or frog-walks out of office, now is not the time to tax our economy to the breaking point in the hopes that future generations of today's undocumented day laborers will become high-income additions to the tax base.

I would probably reverse the order of your first two solutions. Yes, the best way to halt the influx of Mexicans into the US is to improve things in Mexico (in fact, if Mexico does implement some real reform and we continue along the same path, maybe we'll flood over the border into Mexico some day soon). But Mexico is not ours to fix, and apparently it is almost impossible to initiate real economic reform and fair trade in our own country, let alone our neighbor to the south. I think we have to be more concerned for the rising oligarchy and inverted wealth-to-population ratio right here at home. To the extent that we can use economic pressure to influence Mexico towards internal reform and nudge them in the right direction, I absolutely think that is a key part of any solution. But even without the current corporate fascists in the White House, I think our ability to remodel Mexican society from the ground up will be quite limited for some time to come.

That leaves me to place your number two solution up there at number one. We have laws that we are not enforcing, and we need to start. It's simple supply and demand. Crack down on the largest employers of undocumented immigrants, severely curtail the number of jobs available to these immigrants, and they will quickly stop coming North to seek their fortunes in a country that doesn't need them. The only reason we haven't done this is a simple lack of resolve: politicians don't want to bite the corporate hand that feeds their campaign funds, and money is the name of the game when it comes to getting elected. I guess that implementing this solution en force would require some significant campaign finance reform at the same time, so that politicians would not have to be so beholden to their corporate patrons.

And I would be remiss to not mention beefed up border security, particularly since 9-11 and the ridiculous fact that our borders are porous and our ports are wide open to mystery cargo. When I speak of border security, I do not mean Minute Men or volunteer state militia. I don't mean 50' high fences and Sheriff Joe's posse. I mean employing people specifically trained to patrol our borders and deal with border security issues. I mean the Border Patrol. Any serious talk of making our borders strong and secure starts with expanding the size of the Border Patrol (promised but not delivered), and in numbers sufficient enough to get the job done. Sure, using high-tech sensors and imaging and flying drones over the southern desert are part of the effort, but it is the Border Patrol Agents that should be doing the border patrol job. BTW, in a pinch, I think it is appropriate to use the State National Guard, but only in a temporizing manor. Unfortunately, we can't even do that, can we? They're all on 5th or 6th tours of duty in an unnecessary preemptive illegal war for oil.

Anyway SW, thanks for returning and casting some more pearls our way. I suggest that you search back to many of AZ Moderate's fine articles on the immigration issue, or maybe he will post a link to some of his best of here.

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SWillard

Mar. 21, 2007 at 08:50:22 PM

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Wow! What great comments! SW is very pleased. I will check out AZ MODERATE.

Just a clarification to Debbie of Phx:

Reciprocity should be mutual and equivalent sharing of positive things.

Retribution is punishment given to someone because someone thinks its justified.

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Debbie of Phx

Mar. 21, 2007 at 09:42:24 PM

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MIC,

Good points.

Have you read Angela's Ashes? (Irish immigrants not a drain: "absence of a social safety net." Collateral damage?)

Have you seen the movie, Wetback? Wow. That movie is so intense that students who have "lived" the issue ask to be excused. (It's a documentary about many things, but mostly two men traveling through the "landmine" of Mexico-- a place where where dark skinned people are robbed, raped and lose their legs trying to "ride the train" north. It's a movie about saying goodbye to your home, your mother. Crying. Desperation. Hope that "America" is a place you're safe. You can eat).

MIC, I am not attacking you I am pleading.

Tom Carter: you said, "Peace?" My nephew is Yaqui Mexican. Round his family up? They've been here for generations. "The border crossed us." Round up and separate my students' families? Is the border "closed" already? Build a wall or what? Who's going to pay for rounding up and building walls? Is it a desperate "work/welfare" ploy to keep Arizonans employed through tax dollars, rounding up and building walls? Will we hire "private contractors" while we're at it? What about Canada? Are the "borders" to Canada closed already? Are we responding to a "crisis" hyper-sensitized by Russel Pierce? Are we as petty as he is? (Who is he)?

Who is Russle Pierce?

Debbie

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