Smoking vs. Choice...

But what would I know; I'm just an Average American....

I know how much you love that line....

And we pretty much know how A.A. is going to die . . . early!      Black lung or lung cancer. My dad has one , my grandma had the other (nasty way to die). 

If I start a bar or eatery and I have put up the money to start the busines and it is a place where some people like to hang out and watch say a game on Sunday, have a beer and smoke a cigarette, how is that bothering you? You don't like the cigarette smoke, so you never come in there. I lose the income that I would have gotten from you, but I made a choice to open a place and I knew in advance you and people like you would not enjoy, I knew this and did it anyway hoping that people like myself will turn out in great numbers to enjoy themselves, thus making me a rich man or at the very least, give me the ability to put food on the table for my kids.

Being a business owner doesn't give you unlimited freedom.  You have to build according to the fire code.  You have to pass public health inspections.  You cannot serve cocaine and methamphetamins.  So now we find out that your smoking establishment is hazardous to your patrons health.  Are you grandfathered in and exempt from any further regulations?  No.  If the city found radon in your basement, your business is closed until the radon is removed and your establishment is safe again.  If you don't have a problem with people knowingly or unknowingly hurting themselves, I think you better rethink why we have laws against narcotics, or prostitution, or driving under the influence.

Again , how is this hurting you? We all know the supposed dangers of smoking and we have made the decision to chance it. We are adults using a legal substance in accordance with the law. No underage people are allowed in the bar because I serve alcohol. The children are safe from it. Only of age consenting adults are inside and all know the risk.

Supposed dangers?  Produce for me any peer reviewed papers establishing the safety of smoking tobacco.  Over 95% of people with lung cancer are smokers or ex-smokers, or exposed to significant second hand smoke.  The only reason why smoking is legal inside restaurants serving the public is because we didn't know its dangers for centuries, and, more recently, because the tobacco companies sat on the knowledge that their products kill their customers.  Your substance is only legal until the law is changed.  And guess what:  The law just got changed.  Drinking immoderately does indeed harm you, but it doesn't hurt the guy next to you (unless you pull a knife).  Smoking next to someone does harm them.  The comparison is invalid.  And you still haven't answered my question from the other thread:  Has a lap dance ever given you or the patron next to you cancer?

Remember, I [barrowed] the money or put it up out of my own pocket, no government subsidies are involved here. How exactly does this effect you? All you have to do is stay out if you don't like it.

What if our airlines had no regulations at all.  They are private enterprises in that they aren't government owned.  So why do we presume to tell them how to fly their planes, or that they have to have seatbelts?  Because public safety trumps their rights to do whatever they wish, whether it's their airplane or not.  You might say, as owner of U.S. Aeroflat, that the customers knew exactly what they were getting into, so what is the problem?  The thing that you totally miss in this debate is that government always walks a tight line between guaranteeing the freedom of the individual and the safety of the general public.  This issue is no different.  When Pinball says he thinks the anti-smoking propositions are over the line, he expresses a legitimate concern because he recognizes the difficult balance.  You, on the other hand, argue from an all or nothing point of view, and your arguments are fallacious, and illogical, and hypocritical.  You want us to give up our freedom of privacy when it comes to wiretapping, but you have no problem using your God-given freedom to be unregulated by government when it comes running a business where the general public dines.  If you can't see the blatant inconsistencies of your argument, you are frankly hopeless.

Down the street a gal, we will call her Michelle opens her own bar, a non-smoking bar. She has the freedom to serve alcohol same as me, but chooses not to allow smoking. I want to smoke in a bar, so why should I not have a choice in the matter? Should not the market in this case be allowed to let both classes, smokers and non-smokers, enjoy themselves in a setting that makes them happy? This is a question of choice MIC, not a question of you attempting to legislate your morality on me. You don't want me legislating mine on you.

I am not, and will never, legislate morality on you my friend.  Where did you get that?  You are indeed confused.  I am legislating a reasonable standard of public health that the majority of citizens (at least in this state) want you to abide by.

And how long before we restrict smoking in our cars because a bit of smoke could linger to long above the road as your car drives thru, or worse, in my own house or backyard?

I bet your wife loves fighting with you.  How ridiculous.

I don't like the smell of ass, so I avoid bathrooms that smell. I also don't like the smell of diesel exhaust but I am exposed to it every day as I sit in traffic. I don't like the smell of some perfumes yet I have to be exposed to those snooty little ladies in Dillards and Robinsons/May trying to get me to smell their latest colaborations with Channel. I know that diesel can harm me, but I can role up my window, still comes thru my A/C. So I understand the no split room establishments that allow smoking on one side but not the other. But I can stay away Dillard and Robinsons/May and and instead shop at Norstroms if I wish, and if I want to slum I can even hit Sears. I can even decide to hold it for another mile before I piss if the bathroom at McDonald's smells like ass. I have a choice in the matter.

How many times do we have to tell you?  Smoking causes cancer.  Not right way, not in everybody, not even in most smokers, but in a significant minority of smokers.  And when they get this cancer, you, and I, and everybody else will have to pay for it, through Medicare, or higher insurance premiums, or exorbitant hospital bills.  I'm all for your freedom to personally self-destruct, but I do not wish to pay for it.

If the dangers of smoking are so great and the health effects do horrible, why are you not pushing for flat out banning the product, instead of reducing the rights of those who are participating in a, as of this moment, legal substance.

We all have are dangerous habits, don't we?  Some of us overeat, and some of us like to bungee jump, or ski.  As I said above, our laws attempt to walk a line between personal freedom and public good.  I draw the line that when your habit is effectively isolated to yourself, then I won't infringe upon it.  But when I have to take my children to non-smoking establishments in Tempe, 30-40 miles away, just because you can't go outside a restaurant for 10 minutes to smoke, then I am unsympathetic. 

The other thing I would ask you is how long until you and the rest of the Smoke Nazis go after the makers of Twinkies and Ho-Ho's? As I have stated before, fat has killed more people than cigarettes in this country and around the world due to heart decease and a myriad of other issues caused by being overweight. Perhaps you would like to start with the following message on Twinkies and other product deemed "Unhealthy".

Why do neocons have to use Nazi as a suffix all the time?  I answered that question in the preceding paragraph.  Your Ho-Hos (or your Hoe-Hoes for that matter) don't pose a threat to me.  Binge on. 

"WARNING- Consuming this product can lead to being overweight. Being overweight has been linked to heart decease and diabeties. Consuming this product while pregnant can lead to high birth weights and more baby weight for you to lose. Men consuming this product can become fat and that can make it hard to get laid."

That would be a fair assessment.  How about this warning:  WARNING - Listening to too much Rush Limbaugh can make you an intolerant, pig-headed, idiot.

I really don't understand a mentality that allows for women to have complete dominion over their bodies when it comes to killing their unborn child, yet I can't decide for myself if I want to go to a place that allows smoking or not.

Abortions actually decrease when they are permitted and regulated by law.  When illegal, abortions simply move underground, and pose a greater risk to the mother.  Not regulating abortions actually saves lives; not regulating tobacco simply destroys it.

If it is the effects of smoking you are trying to stop, BAN it. Otherwise let me live my life and make my own decisions. And if you are so happy with non-smoking places, open one.

We just did ban it, with some exceptions, in indoor restaurants and bars.  Thank you for the suggestion.

Indie, When I said there would be no children allowed i was referring to California law, my mistake. In California you can't have underage people in the bar unless you have a grill and I would not under this scenario. I should have specified that and I appologize.

You statement is valid whan you say if there was a law keeping kids out. I too have seen and been in places like pool halls with my kids playing pool while people were smoking. My Dad smoked around me when I was a kid and it certainly did not stunt my growth in the least. I can't say I buy all the studies about second hand smoke. I heard that the U.N. put out a report a few years ago stating that the second hand smoke issues were nowhere near as dangerous as the Americans have made it seem. I will look for that information tomorrow when I have more time.

As for the tyraid MIC went on, you don't have to go to Tempe for dinner or a drink, just wait and someone will open a nonsmoking bar or grill, if they are wanted by the public, otherwise stay out, not my concern for you to have everything you want in live, Go open your own.

And I have to say that your comments lately have not been the same. You won the election, what the hell are you so mad about?

Here I will make you happy, make smokers sign a paper stating that no public funds can be used to save their lives, but if you do you better make the Gays and drug users dign it too, because you don't AIDS  by second hand sex or second hand IV needles.

I don't think we should pay for them either because it is there legal right to have Gay sex but I should not have to pay for their healthcare when they made a choice to engage in that sex. Not the desire to be gay, but to follow thru with that kind of sex. Their are other ways to pleasure each other than that way.

This is the arguement you just made about smokers and healthcare. I'll sign your if you sign mine.

I think you need to take a moment and re-read some of your comments lately directed at me. I think you are having some kind of an Average American related meltdown.

While you are a passionate and compassionate man, but you have completely disregarded a business owners and an adults right to be adult and make decisions. Your comments about different laws does not justify the next one. More money is spent on fat people than smokers MIC and you know it. They will come for your Twinkies someday.

And as for that comment bout it being rediculous about the smoke crossing you path, its already been done in LA where a man was sued for smoke entering an apartment upstairs from his apartment. Now I have no problem with non-smoking buildings, so long as the person runnign them makes the call. It is their right to do so.

It's like the landscaping company that turned down a job for a gay man. They sent an e-mail letting him know they did not do business with Homosexuals. Stupid, Yes, (they have more disposable income than straight couples on average) but not illegal. They have a right to do business with whom they want and to not do business with whom they do not want.

You have a right to go into a smoking pace or not, but that should lie with you, your choice will nto be infringed upon by me.

Now if you want to continue this discussion or any other ones in the future with me, I expect you to cool your jets a bit on the personal attacks. Otherwise I can ignore you. You hold no higher or lower ground than i do.

I know I can't get second hand Aids, but I still have to pay for their uninsured ass when they can't pay the bills,

THAT'S MY POINT HERE.